Ep #305: Living Your Why Better Through Referrals

Stacey Brown Randall: We all know referrals are important, but sometimes referrals can be so much more than just new client revenue.

Hey there, and welcome to episode 305 of the Roadmap to Referrals podcast, a show about helping you build a referable business. I’m your host, Stacey Brown Randall. My journey from a business failure to a successful business now more than 10 years in, I know generating referrals naturally and consistently has made all the difference. Working with clients around the world, we leverage the science of referrals, protect relationships above all else, and help you build a referable business.

Hey, real quick before we dive into today’s episode, which is one I know you’re going to love listening to, I just want to remind you that we are right smack dab in the middle of our 30 Ways to Take Control of your Referrals.

So if you aren’t checking out my profiles on social media every day to get your daily tip, don’t worry. We may be on day 16, but it’s not too late. You can find all the tips, 1 through 16, and then, of course, follow along for the rest of the daily tips through day 30 on my social media platforms. Just look for those daily tips on my profiles at LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. You can find me at Stacey Brown Randall.

And if you’re looking for all of them in one place, I’ll be sharing next week how you can download an infographic that’ll give all the information, all 30 ways that you can take tiny actions, little, small steps that you can do one a day or all at once to take control of your referrals finally. So don’t miss out on our 30 ways to take control of your referrals. Just follow me on social for the daily tip, or pretty soon you’ll be able to download that infographic.

I am so excited to have you guys listen in to this fabulous conversation I had with one of my BRB clients. So this is my coaching program, Building a Referable Business, and you guys get to listen to Jen and I have a great conversation about referrals.

Now, here’s the thing. I love helping clients get more referrals just the same way that you love helping your clients get whatever results it is that you help them get in whatever it is that you do.

But when I first met Jen, I never really realized the depth of her why and the passion she has behind what she does. So I’m not going to actually give a spoiler alert. I thought I was going to, but I really want you guys to listen to this interview.

So when she introduces herself in the beginning of the interview, you’ll hear her talk about what she does. So I’m not going to give the spoiler alert. But there is a really compassionate, and passionate reason to why she does what she does. And when you hear her talk about why she does what she does and the stats behind it, I mean, it’s actually some pretty scary stuff.

So I know you’re probably like, what are you leading us into Stacey? I just I want you guys to listen to this conversation that I have with my client. and understand what Jen does for a living, why she does it. We get right into that at the very beginning of our interview.

And then she’s also going to talk about why referrals are so important for her business, and particularly how it allows her to truly live out her why that is just so very deep and very, very meaningful. And then, of course, she’s going to talk about the awesome success that she’s having inside the program as well.

So without further ado, here’s Mystery Woman Jen. Please take a minute to listen to this interview. I think you will absolutely appreciate it. So take it away, Jen.

Stacey Brown Randall: Jen, I am so glad to have you on the podcast today and to welcome you to have this little chat with me. I’m excited for us to talk about not only why you’re in BRB, but what you do, because there is just a great story, I think, behind what you do and why you do what you do.

But before we get there, I did give a little introduction to the folks listening, so they know a little bit about you. But can you just share a little bit more about what you do?

Jen Gillman: Sure. Thank you so much for having me. This is really fun for me too. I am, I call myself a law firm matchmaker. I was a practicing attorney for 12 years and I didn’t get to see my older child for about two years during the week ever.

It was my, my hours were so crazy. And I was in the process of looking for a job that was closer to home because we had moved out to the suburbs, and I made myself a long commute. And also, I was in private practice in a litigation heavy kind of practice. And I happened to have a lot of trials that were one after the other, and it was really crazy.

So I was trying to go in-house closer to home in New Jersey. And in the process of applying for a job and going through many rounds of interviews, I met a different recruiter who called me to see if I wanted to apply for the same job.

And I was already going to meet with the GC. So I said, oh, no, I’m ready. And he said, oh, gosh, you did a lot better than the guy I sent. He flamed out after the first round. You’re in round four. Let me take you to lunch, and I’ll tell you about some other roles I’m working on.

So I said, oh, yeah, it’s great. That sounds great. And he spent the whole lunchtime telling me that I should be a recruiter. And I had heard that a few times before when other recruiters would call me about a job. And then they’d say, you know, we have an opening here. And I said, well, I like being a lawyer. I like the job you were telling me about. Let’s go ahead and talk about that.

But we had gotten to the point where I didn’t like the unsustainable kind of schedule that I had as an attorney. And I was looking for that in-house position with a perfect schedule, you know, they were a little hard to find. So he said, just give me two weeks, just try it. And if you don’t love it, I’m going to leave you alone. I promise. And I gave him two weeks and it never felt like a job.

Stacey Brown Randall: I think that is so awesome. Like when I remember when you applied for the BRB program, I was like, lawyer matchmaker. I was like, I mean, I instantly kind of knew what it was, but I was like, that’s just a really cool way to describe yourself. Like it was just, it was really awesome.

So I, of course, if people know this, when you apply for any of my programs, I Google stalk you. Like I go check out your website, I go check out your social, like I need to know you’re a real human and someone I can help, if we’re going to make some big claims about your referral generation and the success you’re going to have.

So I do check out the people before I accept them. And I just remembered learning more about you. And I was like, of course there’s an attorney, a lawyer matchmaker. That makes perfect sense. And I remember when I used to be a productivity coach, I coached some attorneys.

And I remember this one attorney working at a big firm in Uptown Charlotte literally hired me to come sit in his office twice a month to make sure he had the schedule mapped out so he could hit his billable hours for the year. And he did it and he moved up and he got promoted and things were great and all that kind of stuff. But I just remember thinking, oh, that could not be my life.

And, you know, we have a mutual friend, Jordan. And I remember Jordan sent me, this is kind of how this all started getting on the podcast. But Jordan sent me a text message. He was like, hey, Jen was just talking about the success she’s having in your program. She was raving about you. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that’s so awesome. I’m so excited.

I was like, I need to go check her tracker so I can see exactly how she’s doing. And she was like, you know, Jen believes what I believe, that lawyers deserve not to be miserable and to actually thrive where they work.

So I think your why is so powerful and it’s so much routed or like rooted, I guess, in from the work that you did and now being able to help other attorneys like find happiness, that’s gotta be so fulfilling.

Jen Gillman: It really is. I mean, I was struck because when I was just a lowly associate, I kept my head down and built hours. And they tell you when you’re graduating from law school, your job is to do excellent work and be flexible and responsive. And the partners are your clients.

Just do excellent work. And one day clients will come to you because they’re going to fall from the sky, right? And I used to be really jealous of the partners that had those corner offices, the ones that I knew had big books of business, had all this business development going on, had lots of clients.

And the more I got to know them in my role as a recruiter, the more I realized many of them feel stuck and overwhelmed and miserable. And my superpower was being able to figure out if it was because they didn’t like being lawyers. And I have other resources for that. I have many people to introduce them to, or because they were just simply at the wrong firm. And that’s such an easy fix.

And they didn’t see it that way because they were in the middle of it, and they thought every firm was the same and it would be just as bad. And, you know, I better stick with the devil I know where I built up some goodwill and this is how it is. I don’t want to open a cupcake shop. I want to be a lawyer. You know, like, like, those were the only two alternatives. They always talk about cupcakes. I don’t know why.

Stacey Brown Randall: I mean, maybe because it’s such the opposite, but it’s sweet, right? So that’s the opposite of what they’re doing. Yeah, I think that’s kind of one of those things that’s I think when you’re in it, and we can all be like, even as business owners and ourselves, right, when we’re in it, we can only see the trees in front of us, we cannot see the whole forest.

So I think that is pretty cool what you do. And the fact that what you know to be true because you’ve been doing this for years and years and placing attorneys in other firms and they’re happy is that not all the firms are the same, and you can find the right culture fit, which I think is really powerful.

And I think a lot of those folks, you know, when they figure out that maybe I don’t want to go to another firm, a lot of times what they look at is I either stay where I am or I start my own business. Now, I love it when those attorneys decide to start their own businesses because then they get to come hang out with me.

But the truth is, is that for some of them, that’s not the next step for them. And they won’t actually enjoy being a business owner. They just really want to practice law at a place where they can be happy. And I love that you have built a whole business around making sure that they realize that that’s possible.

Jen Gillman: Yeah, I mean, there are certainly some firms that are friendlier than others and all of that. But there are a lot of really nice, well-meaning firms that just either start out from the beginning being a bad fit or your clients.

And when you’re an attorney, you know, somebody was representing Amazon when Jeff Bezos was in the garage with the hand lettered sign and now has to be at a bigger multinational firm in order to provide the right resources and support for their client, right? And sometimes lawyers just don’t like to be wrong.

They say stuff like, well, it used to be a great fit. Yeah, it might have been a great fit before, but now you’re giving away two million dollars of business a year because your office, your firm won’t open an office in Chicago. If you go to a firm that will or a firm that already has an office in Chicago, all of a sudden, things get easier or your rates are not right or you don’t have the right practice area.

So we say, you know, a lot of these lawyers spend years being on the apology tour. They spend all day at work apologizing to their clients for not being able to get them work done fast enough or in the right location or the right practice area or at the right rates.

And then they spend all night apologizing to their families for missing the Little League game or the school play or not making it home for dinner. And sadly, they don’t have to apologize to their friends anymore because their friends stopped calling a long time ago.

So it’s sad, but people who have reached the top of their profession and are the people that I used to be jealous of, actually have very high suicide rates, mental health issues.

Stacey Brown Randall: And aren’t there are heart issues too?

Jen Gillman: Yeah. I mean, those stories that you read about lawyers having heart attack at their desk and dying are unfortunately not that unusual. A lot of lawyers don’t have the time to take care of their own health, whether it’s mental or physical health.

And, you know, it’s fine if you’re preparing for a really big trial and you don’t sleep for a couple of nights, but it’s not fine if you don’t sleep for a couple of decades. And it really does take a toll after a while.

Stacey Brown Randall: I mean, I just like it’s impossible to talk to you and not hear the, you know, sometimes when people talk to me about what I do and they’re like, oh, you’re so passionate about it. Like, yeah, but I’m not saving lives.

Like at the end of the day, let’s be really clear, I’m helping people grow their businesses. I’m not saving lives. There’s part of this where you are, like you are keeping someone from possibly walking down the path of being at a miserable job and having a heart attack at their desk.

Like the passion that you feel and the why that you do this is because you know it so intimately. And then you realize, wait, there can be something different for me. And I can use that to help other people find something different, which I just think is so awesome. I mean, that’s so cool.

Jen Gillman: Well, I think what you do is very important, too. And there are lots of people who, you know, referrals save their business and that does save their lives or, you know, their family’s income or you know, that kind of thing.

But. I want to make sure that that lawyer suicide number goes down to zero because lawyers are so much more likely to commit suicide than the general population. It’s alarming, and no one’s doing enough about it. I mean, we’re finally thinking about mental and physical health, but this is still very alarming, and we have to make sure that it’s not the same number next year.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yeah, it’s going the right direction, which is down. Not up. I love that. Well, and I appreciate what you said. You’re right. I have definitely had people. You said that like, oh, referrals could save their firm.

And I’m thinking about an attorney that I worked with, she has been following my processes now for nine years. She is incredible. And she said that after the first year, she was like, I’m still an attorney because you helped me figure out this whole like bring in a business piece that I did not want to do.

So you’re right. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me the value and just because it doesn’t maybe necessarily seem that way on the surface. I appreciate that.

So let’s talk about referrals because in what you do right there is this huge need for trust, for people to be willing to have a conversation with you who could be very much a stranger to them about their unhappiness, about where they are, and maybe wanting to go somewhere else.

So that level of trust is huge, which means, of course, referrals are big with you within the business that you do. So talk to us a little bit about why referrals are so important to your business and why you decided to make that a big focus.

Jen Gillman: Sure. So, you know, in any business, the know, like, and trust factor is very important, but lawyers tend to be the most risk-averse population I’ve ever met. And they’re always seeing the potential risk in every situation.

And in this case, because we focus on rainmakers, those lawyers who have their own clients who will move with them, it’s very important for them, and there are no non-competes for lawyers. So they could change jobs every day if they wanted to. They’re protected that way. But they need to make sure that if they’re promising they’re going to bring clients, that those clients actually do follow them.

And so there’s a great need for confidentiality because if the firm they were leaving found out they were planning to bring clients with them, the firm would maybe badmouth them to those clients or offer them a special financial deal to stay or some other kind of incentive. And then they would get to the new firm having promised something that they couldn’t deliver on.

So they’re correct in thinking that it is very important for it to be confidential. They might take it to the next level and act like they’re CIA agents sometimes, but it is actually important. And so there are a lot of, unfortunately, there’s no bar to entry to be a legal recruiter.

And, you know, there is an organization I belong to called NALSC, where we all take an ethics pledge, and we work a certain way. But there are a lot of legal recruiters that are not part of NALSC, and when I was still practicing, I got calls from a lot of unsavory legal recruiters on a fairly regular basis, and it made me have a little bit of a distrust for recruiters too, so I get where they’re coming from. I really do.

It’s just so much easier when it’s a friend or someone they trust or a colleague who says, oh, no, you can talk to Jen. It’s OK. And we offer a lot of advice and a lot of information that’s unrelated to changing jobs. We are working on the six pillars of becoming a happy Rainmaker.

It’s the six things that you can do in order to have an enjoyable, sustainable career as an attorney. And we are putting together some more resources than even we have already. But I spend a lot of time making introductions and giving people other resources, not just trying to get them to change firms.

It helps with that trust factor, though, when we have that distrustful, nervous population. Anyone who is going to come as a referral has gotten past that a little bit. And that’s a really nice place to be in the conversation.

Stacey Brown Randall: You know, and it matters so much, I think, for what you do, because that trust and confidentiality has to be there. But it exists, right? That trust factor exists anytime someone is referred. And that’s what makes them so powerful, right?

And that’s what people understand. They’re like, oh, they show up and they already know they have a problem. They’re willing to talk about it because they were willing to be connected to me. And so now we can actually have a conversation about the problem and if I can help them solve it, versus like the tap dancing, song and dance, me trying to figure out, do you even have a problem? Do you even know you have a problem?

So that trust factor is huge in recognition. But for you, I think it goes that extra level into that confidentiality because they are scared to talk. They want to. They know they probably need to do something. But like you said, some are great at what they do, and some aren’t in your world as legal recruiters.

And so that being able for a candidate to be referred to you just makes the whole process easier. And when you think about the business that you’ve built, over the last number of years that you’ve been building this business, it’s not like you haven’t been receiving referrals. We didn’t start from scratch.

When you came into the program, it wasn’t like, I’ve never gotten a referral. That was not the conversation we had. But it was this intentionality you had to really make sure you had the right processes and strategies and procedures in place and that you weren’t leaving opportunities on the table to do even more from a referral perspective.

So when you made the decision to join BRB and you were thinking about, okay, this is what I want to do, what were some of those goals that you had kind of set for yourself in terms of a year from now, what you wanted your company to look like from a referral perspective?

Jen Gillman: Great question. So we do a lot of planning quarterly and yearly and we look at the ROI of everything we do and the different candidates we work with and what kind of results we get. And I noticed that I greatly preferred the conversations where somebody was coming through a referral and didn’t have the whole distrust issue at the beginning.

Because they have to talk about very personal information with me. I need to know when I ask about clients, I’m kind of asking about money. It’s their book of business, but it’s easy to figure out what kind of compensation they’re getting. And I need to know what kind of compensation they want at the next firm.

And what’s going wrong is sometimes very personal, too. Sometimes it’s not just, oh, I need a different billing rate for my client. It’s this is taking a mental health toll on me, or my marriage is in trouble, or something is happening. I need to be a trusted resource. So we’ve looked at that.

And I greatly enjoyed speaking to people who are coming through referrals. And then the other thing that was very interesting to me was, we noticed that we were getting some referrals, but they were unpredictable. And we wanted to create a predictability to it and understand what we might expect quarter over quarter or year over year and build upon that, and that’s definitely part of your program and a really important part.

The other thing that was really surprising when we looked at it, though, was I really think I make a huge difference in lives when I help somebody change firms, and they often give me hugs and testimonials and, you know, they, they’re so, so excited but they were not giving us any referrals to other people.

And we were getting our referrals usually from the people that we weren’t able to help, or the people who we gave some advice to and didn’t try to help, or people that I was networking with, that kind of thing.

And we thought, hey, if we’re making such a big difference for people, maybe we could come up with some language or some process to make the placed candidates feel like giving us referrals. And so that was part of our decision-making process and signing up for your program.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yeah, because that’s the thing. I always talk about this, right? Like, there’s not a one-size-fits-all approach to how you go about generating referrals. And people who are like, I need to do this one thing, and then I’ll get all the referrals I want, are typically disappointed and wrong.

Because there’s actually referrals, like, all over your business. And, you know, what you’re specifically talking about is knowing what that looks like from a referable client experience. And what are those moments throughout the client experience for you? It’s the candidate experience, right?

But what are those moments throughout when that candidate is that client with you, and after the fact, those moments to plant referral seeds and those moments to recognize who’s more likely to do it versus not. In addition to taking better care of the people who are already referring you to get referrals from them, too.

And so I think when people realize they’re like, oh, wait, it’s not just this every referral is a nail, so all I need is a hammer. They’re like, wait, I need a toolbox and my toolbox needs to have lots of tools in it to do different things. That’s when they realize the power of like, OK, this is a process we’re going to put in place, and then we’re going to run it.

Hopefully they’re going to run it for years and years and years. That’s what I hope for everybody. You may only be with me for a year, but my goal is that what we build together sticks long after you’re done with me.

And so that’s what you’re realizing is all those other parts and pieces and stuff. So talk a little bit about some of the success that you have had since you joined BRB.

Jen Gillman: Sure. But before I do, I’m just going to tell you that you’re not getting rid of me after a year or so don’t be counting on that.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yay, you can come on our renewal plan. It’s so funny, when people join BRB, they’re like, so do I have to be done after a year? I’m like, no. I mean, think about Catherine, right? She’s an attorney in BRB. She’s like, on what, year seven with me? Like, no, you don’t ever have to be done. We have a maintenance plan. Pricing looks a little better, right? It’s like a little, you know, easier.

But that’s the point, because I do know the things you’re going to deal with in year two, will be different from year one. And year three will be different from year one. So you’re right. I love hearing that. That’s awesome. And I just think that helps you stay with it as well. But thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

Jen Gillman: Definitely. And I must say, I’ve participated in other coaching programs before and I do think that the maintenance program makes so much sense. There are a lot of other coaches that don’t have that flexibility built in. And at some point, people have to say, I can’t afford to do this any more years. With your program, it’s a little bit easier to just stick with you through the life of my business. So expect that.

Stacey Brown Randall: Thank you. I can’t wait. I look forward to hanging out with Jen. We’ll be hanging out together in our old age. It’ll be awesome. You know, and I think that’s the, like, you know what the cool thing is about being a business owner? And now I’m going off topic, but I know you can appreciate this since we’re both one. It’s the ability to figure out what your clients need and then just make it so.

Jen Gillman: Yeah.

Stacey Brown Randall: Like, when we did the first round of BRB, people were like, we’re not done. I’m like, okay, they’ll be done. But let’s look at this and make this a win-win for all involved. And let’s figure out what the maintenance plan, what the renewal looks like.

And they’re like, does that mean we get to keep coming to the retreat? Yes. Why wouldn’t you come to the retreat? That would be weird. Like, it’s the ability to just be like, what do my clients need? Okay, great. That’s what they need. Let me make it so.

I mean, within reason and boundaries and all those kinds of things, right? But yes, thank you for saying that. I appreciate that.

Jen Gillman: So I’ve been working on some really big projects over the time that I’ve been in your referral program. So I’ve only actually dug into the first part of it. So we’ve worked on the referral sources we already have and coming up with a system and making sure that we were treating those referral sources correctly so that they might be inclined to refer again, or perhaps more than one more time.

And, you know, we work on a small number of very lucrative projects every year. So one referral is worth so much to me. And, you know, we had started, and we looked back, and we did notice that we had some referral sources already, but it was unpredictable and sporadic at best.

And now I have a program and a way of looking at it and a process to follow. And it makes me feel like I can have an expectation that I can cultivate those referral sources, and, you know, I don’t know which one of them is going to refer on which day but I have gotten extra referrals from those same sources.

And we just closed the biggest deal that we’ve ever worked on. And it came with one of those referral sources. So that’s working out. And I haven’t even had a chance to get into the next part of your program, which I’m really looking forward to, which is, you know, cultivating new referral sources.

And that would be the placed candidates that love to give me hugs and tell me how much better their lives are, and give testimonials, but aren’t really giving referrals. Although I think the referral karma is already working, because coincidentally, while we’ve been looking at the people who are already referring, I got my first referral from a placed candidate, very much out of left field.

Stacey Brown Randall: I love that. So it’s out of left field, but it was always in the works. That’s how, like it feels out of left field. It’s funny. I had somebody say that to me. They joined the program and they’re like, literally, like let’s be honest. They really hadn’t started on anything that I teach.

They like had gotten like maybe their kickoff cards in the mail and they were going through the GBR program, and they got their kickoff card in the mail, and they got like four referrals. They’re like, wait, is this how it works?

And I’m like, it’s a little bit like seeing red cars, right? You decide you want to buy a red car and now all of a sudden, you’re seeing them everywhere. I was like, when you decide to invest in something and you decide to pay attention to something and do the work for something, you will start seeing opportunities you didn’t see before.

And I’ll have armed you with how to take advantage of those opportunities, right? To make sure you don’t lose those opportunities. And then you’ll do the work too and you’ll take better care of folks and so you’ll naturally get those referrals as well, but it is it’s both.

It’s a little bit of like, hey, what we put our attention to and what we call our attention to is usually what we are able to create more of and it does work that way with referrals. But it’s also like strategies and language and tactics and consistency and all the things too.

So I love that you have like, you’ve dug in, you’ve done what you could. I think capacity is really important for people to understand. You’re not supposed to come in and be like, do it all in the first 90 days.

Like capacity of what you have going on in your business and then pulling the right strategies that you need and in the order. And that’s why we do that onboarding call. Because when you told me, you’re like, we got some things going on and I’m like, well, we need to get some referrals coming. So let’s start with our low hanging fruit, which for you are the people who had referred you before and it’s working.

And I love that. It’s so exciting. You’ve closed the biggest deal from a referral with being in the program, which is fabulous. But then you know that there’s more, but you can do it at your pace.

And I think that’s really important. When I first started the coaching program, it was actually six months. And I watched too many stressed out people try to get it all done in six months. I was like, nope. Nope, it’s 12 months. Sorry.

Jen Gillman: I think I’m hitting my six-month mark soon and I would have been very stressed.

Stacey Brown Randall: Very stressed. And so I was like, nope, we’re just going to make this a year. And then that’s why we introduced the maintenance plan after that as well, just for people to keep going.

Because the truth is I want to build sustainable changes in all of my clients’ businesses. And to do that, we have to honor the ebbs and flows, the highs and the lows, the capacity, the big projects that have nothing to do with referrals that you will deal with as a business owner. And trying to cram it into 90 days or six months is just too stressful.

Jen Gillman: I agree. So I’ll be seeing you for several years. And I think it’s going to be very interesting, even once I’m able to implement all of the training to just follow it year over year and make those tweaks.

Because you know, we really like to be doing just attraction-based marketing. And we do some other things. I do some networking and some speaking, and we’re on LinkedIn. But the referral portion of it will make it so that we don’t have to reach out to people cold anymore in the future. And I would love that because then I would never be compared to one of those sleazy recruiters that I used to not like myself.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yeah. I mean, it’s absolutely. I mean, when you think about everything, you can’t ever just build your business in one way but doing it in the ways that work for you, it’s just so very, very important. I mean, I love that. I think that’s excellent.

Okay. So let’s wrap up by asking, let me just ask this one final question. So you’ve shared a lot about why you do what you do, why referrals are so important, and then, of course, the success that you are experiencing being in the coaching program.

What would you say to a business owner who’s listening to this and they’re considering joining the program? What would you say as to why they should join the BRB coaching program?

Jen Gillman: Well, I think anyone who has a product or a service that’s, I guess, valuable enough that you want to invest a little bit of time to get another sale or another client, this is a no brainer.

I mean, for me, just getting one referral during the entire program would have made it worth it, and I’ve already gotten multiple referrals. So, you know, I’m sold on it forever. But for most people, I mean, the cost of the program is probably less than getting one new client or selling one more thing, and it’ll give you something that you can use going forward in your business for the life of your business.

I mean, I’ll probably stick with you because I need a little more accountability, but for people who can learn it in one year and go off and use it forever, good for them. I mean, it seems that it’s something that is going to be useful for my business, for the life of my business. I think that it is a very small investment of time and money to get such a very large result.

Stacey Brown Randall: That is awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you also for putting in the work. I mean, let’s be honest, it doesn’t matter how great the strategies are and what I teach, the processes and procedures and language and stuff, if you don’t actually do it, nothing happens.

So I’m always just appreciative of the folks who join my program and then they take it seriously and they do the work at their own pace, of course, but they do the work. So thank you for being an excellent student.

Jen Gillman: I might have been mumbling under my breath a little when I was doing those handwritten cards.

Stacey Brown Randall: But that one referral that you got closed made all that handwriting worth it.

Jen Gillman: But I have to say, that was the most time-consuming moment of it. And I got such very nice messages in return. People really appreciate those small touches. And all the things that you asked us to do during the program had a real impact on the people who were receiving them. So I can see that I’m just going to not question it anymore and follow your advice.

Stacey Brown Randall: I love it. That is perfect. And I think that you should just do exactly what you said, just follow it, make it happen. Yes. You know, it’s one of those things. It’d be one thing if I’d only been doing this for a year, but we’re over a decade now. And it’s all based on that science of like what actually gets someone’s attention and makes them feel cared for.

And then what actually helps them do the thing we want them to do in a way that doesn’t feel like we’re telling them. to go do it. Like it is all interrelated as to how it works. You can’t pick out one piece and be like, I’ll just do this one thing and it’ll make it all the same for results because it won’t.

So well, Jen, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I really appreciate you being interviewed on this podcast and sharing other people like not only what you do, but why you’re a member of the program. Are there any final thoughts you want to share with our audience?

Jen Gillman: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. I would just say for anyone who is in the type of business where you could benefit from referrals, this is a no brainer.

But you had some really great free information on your website, which helps me to feel more comfortable. I think I did a free webinar with you or something. I was like, she knows what she’s talking about. I had to show it to my marketing guy and get his okay. And he was like, oh yeah, you should do that.

I mean, it’s the best, most comprehensive referral system I’ve seen. And you actually came highly recommended from some people that I know, like, and trust. So I think the whole referral thing plays itself out and is a really great example.

So I’d be happy to answer questions that anybody has if they want to know what it’s like to be in the program. But I think anybody who’s watching this and could use a couple more referrals should reach out.

Stacey Brown Randall: That is awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Stacey Brown Randall: The show notes page for this episode can be found at StaceyBrownRandall.com/305. That’s 305 for episode 305. And you’ll be able to find the links to the resources that I mentioned in this episode, in particular, all of Jen’s contact information. So you will be able to go follow her on LinkedIn or check out her website.

Particularly, maybe you know somebody who needs her. You know one of those rainmaking attorneys at a law firm that’s miserable. I would absolutely highly recommend you have them reach out to Jen. Or better yet just reach out to me and I’ll help you make the connection as well.

And of course, if you want to take Jen up on her call to action and join her in the Building a Referable Business coaching program, well, we would love to have you. Your first step is to check out all of the details of the coaching program and complete an application so that I can assess if you’re a fit.

Of course, there is no obligation to join once you apply, but I have to be able to assess if you’re a fit so that application will be your first step. To complete the application, just go to StaceyBrownRandall.com/referable.

Or, of course, that can be found, the link to that, along with all of Jen’s information, can be found on the show notes page for this episode, StaceyBrownRandall.com/305.

Alright, we are back with another great episode next week created with you and your needs in mind. Until then, you know what to do, my friend. Take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now.